Innovate on DontFlush.Me

It is ridiculous that NYC still has 8 gallon flush toilets, both on gallons of  drinking water use and volumes of diluted sewage requiring treatment.

So, I’m proposing a ?simple? innovation topic to act as an example group innovation build upon Leif Percifield and Liz Barry’s Don’t Flush Me project.  So please comment and I’ll manually include your comments into this post.

 

PROPOSAL:  UPGRADING (NYC) TOILET WATER USE EFFICIENCY.

PROBLEM:   27 billion gallons of raw sewage is dumped into NYC water ways every year due to storm events overloading sewage treatment centers. [LP]

Fact – 70% of NYC sewage treatment combines storm water with industrial and domestic sewage. [LP]

Fact – the 14 NYC sewage treatment plants can handle 2x normal day load.  Rain and storm events often exceed the twice normal loading. [LP]

Fact – when NYC receives 1/10 inch in an hour or 4/10 inch in 24 hours, many of the treatment plants are over capacity and untreated sewage is dumped thru 460 Combined Sewage Outflows directly into  the harbor (CSOs are emergency release pipes located below the water line and when the treatment system gets overloaded, monitors open the gate and raw sewage is dumped directly into NYC’s harbor). [LP]

“Fact” – Some NYC toilets use as much as 8 gallons per flush. [LP]

Fact - My toilet uses 1.6 gallons per flush. [JW]

“Fact” – The average NYC flush uses 5 gallons. [LP] Concern –  I’m surprised at the AVERAGE of 5 gal/flush in NYC. [ML]

“Fact” – Most NYC water (in) and sewage (out) is paid for by landlords. [JW]

PROPOSAL – create 3 documents that give an estimate of cost/benefit for retrofitting NYC apt buildings for installing lower water-use toilets.

Brainstorm a cost analysis:

1. money paid for 1.5, 3, 5, and 8 gallon toilets
2. money paid for water in and sewage out 
3. money paid for labor to change out toilets
4. in 30-unit, 50-unit and 200-unit apartment building (prewar, +/-6 stories)

Potential User: Designed for  tenants (and/or landlords) who want to reduce the cost of rent, reduce the untreated sewage released into NYC waterways, and conserve fresh drinking water use in their building.

GOAL:  Active tenants can choose the appropriate assessment for the toilet type, building composition, etc and present a ready-made cost/benefit argument to their landlord for replacing 5 or more gallon toilets simply on sewage and water use pricing. 

 

Plumbing Question- Does a 1.5 gallon toilet require different pipes or pumps to achieve a certain flush pressure? ANSWER:  there is no difference in terms of installation between 5 (or 3.5) and 1.6 gallon toilets–it’s the tank size, not the waste pipe size. [ML]

Energy Question- How much energy does one save by pumping 1.5 gallons of water up 1 floor as opposed to pumping 8 gallons of water per floor? ANSWER: unless they are taller than 6 stories (I think), buildings do not pump water up to any floors but instead rely on city water pressure. Therefore, calculating the cost of pumping certain amounts of water up certain numbers of floors depends on how many total floors there are and who’s paying for it. [ML]

Cost Question – How much does one (a home owner, a landlord, and NYC govt )pay per gallon of clean water? ANSWER: The cost of clean/tap water is $3.17 per one hundred cu.ft. (1 cu.ft = ±7.48gal) as of July 2011: But, the minimum charge for service is $0.43 per day per water meter within a Bill Period. So for very small buildings, this might factor in). [ML]

ALSO there is a flat fees per toilet: Ultra low flow toilet, as approved by the Commissioner is $30.40; All other fixtures are $66.52.  So the building saves $30/year/toilet if they go to UTLRA low flow (don’t know if that’s 1.6 gal or not).[ML]

Cost Question - How much does does a homeowner, a landlord, and NYC govt pay for a gallon (cubic foot?) of waste removal?  ANSWER: To calculate the waste water rates, see this:”The wastewater charge for any property supplied with water from the Water Supply System is … 159%…of the charges for water supplied to that property from the system, including any surcharges, unless otherwise provided in this Rate Schedule.” So use the clean water supply cost and multiply by 1.59. [ML]

Labor Question - What kind of contractors, laborers would we need to hire, for an average installation (hours) and estimate of appropriate NYC hourly rates?

Building Type Question – What should we use to make 3 scenarios for a tenant to use as a rough estimate to landlord? (building age, number of units (bathrooms), number of floors (energy), 1.5, 3, 5 and 8 gallons)?

 

Jeni in Black, Leif in Grey, Meret in Orange, Coburn in blue

    

Concern – I seem to remember a recent news article about a minimum amount of water being needed to keep the solids moving in the system and low flow toilets were aggravating the situation.  Assuming my recollection is correct, placing high waste water commercial users at the start of each line would be a good fix. [CW]

Tangential Point - Permeable surface parking lots help also [ML]  

Tangential Point - Are grey water systems legal in tenant-occupied buildings?[ML]

3 Comments

• 
  Meret November 14, 2011 at 6:05 pm

  As requested by you, here are a couple of comments that might help:

  1) The cost of clean/tap water is $3.17 per one hundred cu.ft. (1 cu.ft = ±7.48gal) as of July 2011:
  http://www.nyc.gov/html/nycwaterboard/pdf/rates/fy2012_rates.pdf
  But, the minimum charge for service is $0.43 per day per water meter within a Bill Period. So for very small buildings, this might factor in 9haven’t run any calcs).

  2) there is no difference in terms of installation between 5 (or 3.5) and 1.6 gallon toilets–it’s the tank size, not the waste pipe size.

  3) unless they are taller than 6 stories (I think), buildings do not pump water up to any floors but instead rely on city water pressure. Therefore, calculating the cost of pumping certain amounts of water up certain numbers of floors depends on how many total floors there are and who’s paying for it.

  4) I’m surprised at the AVERAGE of 5gal/flush in NYC, but what do i know.

  5) When you ask about cost “for a gallon of black water” do you mean for the waste removal? Cause you certainly can’t buy black water. And grey water systems might not be legal in tenant-occupied buildings (not sure, does anyone know?)

  Cheers,
  meret

  Reply
• 
  Meret November 14, 2011 at 6:08 pm

  On a lighter note, I just read about a plumber who is a member of the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) Toilet Adjustability Committee.
  Yep. Those are the guys who know how to adjust a toilet from 1.6 to 1.65 gallons.

  Reply
• 
  Meret November 14, 2011 at 7:09 pm

  From the same linked document about municipal water charges, a couple of more relevant facts:

  1) among all kinds of YEARLY flat fees per building (you pay per every unit, floor, etc. over 1), there’s one fee where you pay per toilet, and they make a difference between
  -Ultra low flow toilet, as approved by the Commissioner. $30.40
  -All other fixtures. $66.52
  So the building saves $30/year/toilet if they go to UTLRA low flow (don’t know if that’s 1.6 gal or not.

  2) To calculate the waste water rates, see this:”The wastewater charge for any property supplied with water from the Water Supply System is … 159%…of the charges for water supplied to that property from the system, including any surcharges, unless otherwise provided in this Rate Schedule.” So you the clean water supply cost and multiply by 1.59. Voila!
  That is only for buildings supplied with city water, not well or river water, and parking lots (that’s another interesting issue–permeable surfaces can GREATLY reduce storm water run-off, but that;s for another nerdy session).

  Ok, I’ll be quiet now.

  Reply